Table of Contents
Conversion Zoo Podcast
Last Update October 26, 2026
SEO and AI are changing how people find businesses online, but one rule hasn’t changed: Google doesn’t rank websites. It ranks trust.
That was the main idea when Brandon Leibowitz, founder of SEO Optimizers, joined the Conversion Zoo podcast. They talked about how search engine optimization really works now, where AI-generated content fits within Google’s guidelines, and why backlinks, branding, and authority still drive long-term rankings.
Here’s what came out of the conversation.
From side hustle to full-time SEO agency
Brandon didn’t plan a career in search. He studied business marketing, then found that most marketing jobs were really sales jobs.
In 2007, one company told him they wanted to “do SEO” and would learn it alongside him. They sent him to workshops, where he met people running 10 websites at once through dropshipping and affiliate marketing. That changed how he saw the internet.
Why he took the slow road
He didn’t quit right away. For roughly 10 years, he worked as a director of SEO at advertising agencies and built his own business before work, after work, and on his lunch breaks.
He went all in around 2015 and left his job a year or two later. His rule was simple:
- Wait until the side business out-earns the salary for about 6 months
- Don’t rely on one big client that could leave tomorrow
- Build up reviews and a reputation before taking the leap
That patience paid off in 2020. Many of his local business clients shut down completely, and if he hadn’t built up e-commerce clients over the years, he says he “would’ve been in a lot of trouble.”
SEO and AI: what the future of search looks like
Nobody can predict exactly where search is going, and Brandon was upfront about that. Google is adding AI to its results to compete with ChatGPT, and new platforms keep launching.
Right now, Google still dominates. People mostly use ChatGPT and other large language models (LLMs) for informational questions, not purchases.
| Platform | Main search intent | Clickable options |
|---|---|---|
| Transactional and informational | 10 organic results plus ads, maps, images | |
| ChatGPT and other LLMs | Mostly informational | Few links, designed to keep you on the platform |
Be where your audience is
You don’t need to be everywhere. You need to be where your customers are already searching.
That might be Google, Yelp, TripAdvisor, YouTube, or Amazon. Each one has its own algorithm, so pick the platforms your target market actually uses and optimize for those first.
The host made a similar point about paid ads. People open Facebook and Instagram to socialize, not to shop, while Google searches carry purchase intent. LinkedIn works well for B2B.
Claim your username everywhere anyway
Brandon’s advice is to focus on one or two channels, but claim your brand name on every platform now.
If someone else takes your handle, getting it back is very hard. They could also post things people mistake for your brand.
How to use AI content without hurting rankings
Content is a huge part of SEO, and AI has changed how it gets made. Brandon still works with human writers, but many of them use AI, so his process is now AI drafting with human editors checking everything.
Google has said it doesn’t care who writes the content as long as it’s helpful. The risk is accuracy. AI hallucinations can slip in made-up facts, and inaccurate posts make for a bad user experience.
Edited AI content ranks just as well as human-written content. Pasting raw ChatGPT output straight into your blog does not.
Brandon’s prompt engineering process
A prompt like “write me a blog post about dog food” gets you something generic and boring. Here’s how Brandon does it instead:
- Ask ChatGPT for 5 topic ideas about dog food
- Pick the topic that fits your audience best
- Ask for an outline on that topic
- Customize the outline yourself
- Then have it write the full article
His prompts are often one or two pages long. The more specific the instructions, the more unique and accurate the result.
What goes into a strong content prompt
The details change by client, but these instructions show up again and again:
- Follow Google’s best practices for helpful content
- Show E-E-A-T (experience, expertise, authoritativeness, trust)
- Use natural language processing and semantic keyword variations
- Mix in synonyms, singulars, plurals, and reordered phrases
- Write strong, clear titles
- Remove emojis, since they’re an obvious sign of AI writing
Why backlinks still matter for SEO and AI search
Backlinks are still central to Google’s ranking algorithm, and AI platforms rely on similar signals.
Anybody can put keywords on a website, so keywords alone can’t tell a search engine you’re legitimate. Third-party websites citing and mentioning you can.
Brandon gave an example. If he built a site called “brandonsdentist.com,” Google’s first question would be: “Are you really a dentist?” To prove it, a real dental practice should show up on sites like WebMD, Yelp, Apple Maps, Bing Maps, and other industry directories.
The overlap between Google and ChatGPT
The host had looked into how ChatGPT decides what to recommend. The factors were very similar to Google’s: reviews, backlinks, and keywords.
Brandon added one reason why. OpenAI is heavily funded by Microsoft, which owns Bing, and Bing’s algorithm is fairly close to Google’s. If you optimize for Google, much of that work carries over.
SEO isn’t dead. It’s evolving.
AI Overviews give you more places to show up
Google’s AI Overviews pull information from websites and link back to them. Tools like Ahrefs now show when your site is cited in one.
The more of the first page you own, the better. Places to show up include:
- AI Overviews
- Organic results
- Images and videos
- Google Maps and your Google Business Profile (for local businesses)
- Google Merchant Center product listings (for e-commerce)
Brandon recommends adding schema markup to help you appear in AI Overviews, which he compares to the featured snippets Google has shown for years.
Quick SEO wins you can do today
When someone asks where to start, Brandon points to two things: more content and more pages.
Many service businesses list every service on a single page. Break each service into its own page and link to each one from the main list.
On his own site, his SEO page lists keyword research, backlinks, Google Analytics, and more. Each item links to its own page with supporting content.
How much content do you need?
There’s no one-size-fits-all word count. You just need to beat your competition. Here’s how:
- Google the keyword you want to rank for
- Open every result on page one
- Check how much text each one uses
- Write a little more than they do
If the top results have 100 words, write about 150. If they have 5,000, aim for 5,100. Also look at how competitors structure their site hierarchy and categories, and borrow the parts that make sense after checking search volume.
Common backlink mistakes to avoid
The biggest mistake Brandon sees is people buying 1,000 backlinks on Fiverr for $20. That leads to a profile full of spammy, unrelated sites.
The wrong links do more harm than good. Having no backlinks is better than having a pile of low-quality ones.
Quality comes down to two things:
- Relevance: the linking site relates to your industry
- Authority: the linking site is popular and trusted
Use Ahrefs, Moz, or Semrush to study your competitors’ backlinks, then do better.
Dofollow, nofollow, and paid PR
Don’t overthink dofollow versus nofollow. A natural link profile has both, and 100% dofollow links tells Google you’re trying to game the system.
Paid PR placements in big publications can be a trap. Some are dofollow links on noindex pages, which means Google never sees them. Brandon has told clients not to spend $2,000 on a placement like that.
Nofollow links from sites like Wikipedia or social media still count as citations, but they don’t pass the SEO value a real backlink does.
Better ways to earn links
Here’s what Brandon recommends for a natural, authentic backlink profile:
| Strategy | Why it works |
|---|---|
| Guest blogging on relevant sites | Editorial links from your niche |
| Guest podcasting | Hosts link to you from their website |
| Chamber of Commerce and BBB | Strong local trust signals |
| MapQuest, Apple Maps, Bing Maps, Yellow Pages | Consistent local citations |
| Industry or software directories | Niche-relevant profiles |
The host shared an example from their own work. They get accounting firm clients listed in accounting software directories, which adds natural, relevant trust signals.
Trust is the real ranking factor
Everything comes back to trust. Brandon described websites that rank for “shoes” and then redirect visitors to pharmaceutical pages, a classic bait and switch.
That’s why Google scrutinizes new sites before ranking them. Showing your site in the results is Google vouching for you, and if it vouches for bad sites too often, people switch to Bing, Yahoo, or DuckDuckGo.
Earning that trust usually takes 6 to 12 months depending on your industry. Once you have it, new pages, products, and blog posts rank much faster.
Watch for slow, steady growth
Check Google Search Console and Google Analytics and look for gradual upward movement. Giant spikes are rare.
Small wins add up over time to that hockey stick growth curve.
Future-proofing your marketing skills
Google and AI platforms change daily, with major algorithm updates every so often. Brandon’s advice: keep reading, learning, and testing.
If you aren’t hiding anything or manipulating results, updates shouldn’t scare you.
Learn in small pockets of time
You don’t need hours on a Saturday. Listen to podcasts while driving or cooking, or watch a YouTube video on your lunch break.
The host suggested treating AI tools as something to play with, not just a chore. You learn faster when you’re curious.
Make room for a passion project
Brandon loves skateboarding. He started a skateboarding clothing company in high school, and years later he launched a skateboarding Instagram page that grew to a couple hundred thousand followers.
It gives him a break from client work and a place to test marketing ideas with no pressure. The host does something similar with a tax resource site for digital nomads.
Like SEO, these projects grow little by little.
Get Brandon’s free gift
Want to put these SEO and AI strategies to work? Visit seooptimizers.com/gift for a free gift, free recorded classes, and a free website analysis you can book on Brandon’s calendar.
Have a question about this? Ask me in Be The Answer, my free SEO community.
